The rental power plants are, at best, a quick and dirty fix. A quicker and cleaner one might have been if last winter the turbine blades in the government’s own generation plants had been replaced with modern, aerodynamic designs.
That action alone would have added a few percentage points in efficiency to plants like Guddu, Shahdara and Kotri and to KESC’s at Bin Qasim.
Today the result would have been a few hundred extra megawatts in capacity — gained without burning a single gallon of furnace oil — and higher approval ratings for the PPP government. Arguably the cost could have been financed through raising debt against future receivables from the additional output and through a carbon credits programme as the increased efficiency would reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The Government of Pakistan is now expected to be writing a plan on how it proposes to overcome the power shortage. Meanwhile, a US team arranged by the Obama administration’s point man in Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, is also presently in Pakistan to make its own assessments. If this arrangement works well, the Holbrooke team will also provide inputs into the GoP’s plan, then carry out a final review and make recommendations. If the GoP accepts those recommendations, the US administration will use its influence to get this plan funded.
In writing this plan, a good starting point for the government would be to define plan objectives that have measurable benchmarks. For instance, the planners may want to lay down ‘promotion of socio-economic development (and justice)’ and ‘the sharpening of Pakistan’s competitive advantage in agriculture and certain industrial sectors’ as the energy plan’s objectives. Lowering the cost of energy is akin to raising GDP per capita as it leaves more purchasing power in the hands of households. It also drives down the cost of doing businesses.
Other objectives could include energy security, the development of indigenous resources and saving of foreign exchange. Whilst Pakistan’s energy mix is skewed towards oil and natural gas, still, and rather remarkably, three quarters of energy needs are met by domestic resources. Indigenous oil and gas reserves, however, are depleting faster than new discoveries are being made. Accordingly, this ratio is fast falling. As another objective, the plan could aim to redress or reverse this trend.
The 14-year delay in developing the Thar coal reserves has brought home two lessons. One, fuel and electricity need to be dealt with in an integrated way. Two, Islamabad must not play tug-of-war with the provinces.
The power sector can be best optimised if the brief is expanded to include transport fuels, renewable energy, conservation initiatives and the carbon trading mechanism. At present, these are scattered across the ministries of petroleum, communications, agriculture and environment, while others are with the Planning Commission and still others with the provincial (in some cases even city) governments.
If upgrading four turbines can take so long one can imagine the mental exhaustion when these additional bureaucracies get involved. Probably as a way to avoid getting bogged down in management frustrations, Pakistan’s energy planners and Richard Holbrooke’s team of experts may be tempted to limit the plan only to the power sector.
This would be suboptimal. It would pose two risks: one, that this narrow approach may defy an optimal solution, and two, that inefficiencies and costs may instead be shifted or imposed elsewhere. To preclude these, the planners need to be given a larger sandbox in which to play. The energy sector needs to be dealt with in an integrated way.
Natural gas is an exhaustible resource. Coal — given the size of Thar’s reserve — is not. For this reason it is central to Pakistan’s energy solution. Half of the world’s electricity is generated from coal. The Thar coal seam lies 130-250m under the desert and for the most part, sandwiched between water tables above and below the coal seam. This poses a mining challenge.
The coal is lignite and of low rank. It has a tendency to spontaneously combust when brought out to the open. This poses storage, transport and a general logistic challenge. Also because it has high sulphur content it emits large quantities of sulphur dioxide when burnt. This poses conversion challenges.
Together these challenges limit the options. Not long ago coal was a dirty fuel. Today, there are clean technologies; a popular one is underground gasification in which the coal never sees the sky. Instead, compressed air is piped down into the coal seam in a way to change its molecular structure and turn it into gas which is then recovered as it gushes out from beneath the surface. The process involves costs but saves on mining, handling, transportation and cleaning the coal.
The resulting gas — syngas — can be used as a fuel in its own right or further converted to natural gas. It can be used for power generation, as transportation fuel and for the production of fertilisers and chemicals. The technology is nothing new. However, the process is capital-intensive and requires know-how. This is where Holbrooke’s team and Pakistan’s allies are needed most.
Coal gasification also offers a halfway house where environmentalists and ‘developmentalists’ coming as they do from opposite directions, can meet and shake hands.
Pakistan’s total energy requirement works out to a little over 100m tons of coal equivalent (mtce) each year. In addition another 50 mtce is provided by burning firewood, dung and crop residues in the rural sector. This uncharted opportunity for biofuels and natural fertilisers is at present outside the mandate of the planners.
Farm waste augmented by jatropha grown on marginal lands can be converted to biofuels, and their residues to organic fertilisers. These together with local wind and solar energy solutions can meet the entire energy requirement of the rural sector. Such programmes have shown to raise rural incomes and alleviate poverty in Latin America and sub-Saharan Africa and must be included in the terms of reference for this plan.
The Kalabagh experience taught us that power cannot be dealt with separately from the water issue. The real world often requires us to handle more complex things than changing a light bulb; even if to an energy saver, or, for that matter, changing four-turbine blades. But first, let’s get the big picture right.
Copyright © 2009 – Dawn Media Group

Moazzam, the question i have often posed to Pakistan’s energy planners is that when we have all the potential to become an energy surplus country why aren’t we one already? You have touched upon some relevant themes. What about hydro?
I really enjoyed the article. Your point is well taken that energy and fuel sources must go hand in hand.
What do you think are the prospects of medium sized solar farms (10-20MW)in pakistan? The technology is fairly modular and can be put together very quickly. So rather then constructing a a large 1000MW+ hydro, coal or natural gas plant that may take years to set up, a solar farm or multiples of it can be put together in 6-9 months, with energy output for 20+ years.
Let me know your thoughts, I have some ideas on how this can be 100% financed and rather cheaply.
Omer, potential is limitless particularly in captive or otherwise off grid mode. Cost per unit and IRR would be key considerations.
Renting power plant are the a very bad decision like IPL craze of last PPP Govt. These dececions are taken only to please foreign Masters of PPP and getting kick backs. It is surprising to note that the situation of Energy shoratge was not this acute during Muhsrraf Govt. Why it has become epidemically worst during last 2 years although the Energy demand is only increasing by 4% as compared to 10% of Musharraf time. It is due to inept PPP Govt which is more interested in foreign trips to get aid which can easily be used to favor political friends and kick backs in contract emanating from such Nationally harmful and dangerous aid packages and making commissions in deals to cover up the loss of 11 years of not being part of the Govt.
It is a tragedy no Nation has ever dealt in his entire life let alone Pakistan’s 63 short years. No long term energy policy has yet been presented by PPP govt and short and adhoc solutions are being forced on pakistsn on the risk of bankrupting the country once again. IMF loans, World bank restrictions on economic growth in the name of balancing Govt expenses and lack of micro growth program in support of poors is going to destroy the country not help it.
It is surprising that Japan generates 200,000 MW power and it has no Indus like River. pakistan’s National resources are not being tapped and the best of all Public participation in Energy sector is being denied by its ownm Govt who thinks WAPDA House Lahore’s surival is mnore important than the survival of the country.
Pakistan’s current generation capacity is about mere 18000 MW, but the Energy companies are only generating 14500 MW because their dues are not being paid by the Govt which is hampering their buying power of diesel, oil or even gas.
Pakistan is probably the first country who is renting Power plant on National level to only later lose than gain in the long run.
Pakistan’s energy crisis has easy solution.
10-20 MW Portable power plants can be purchased from world Market and installed in 6 months which can meet the demand of 2-3 Blocks of Industrial Zones. 20-50 such power plants allowed to private sectors in Karachi, Lahore, Faisdalabad, Sialkot can help any Industrial zone in short as well long term. These plants have 15-20 years life which can allow the country to create a robust energy policy.
Hydal and Nuclear are the only long term viable ways to get cheap energy. Gas and Coal use is a must for pakistan. There is no other solution and therefore Thur Coal is vitally important and should be a National priority no matter what..
Small dams without any water tributary is another way way to get hydel power in pakistan’s volatile political situation. The constitution of pakistan should have a special clause not to use rivber water for agricultural purpose anymore because Sind, baluchistan and even NWFP will only lose water and Punjab will gain water and its is totally anti Pakistan and stupid.
You don’t need River water for agriculrure anymore. With tube wells and reserving rain water which only creates floods and cheap gas Pakistan can revolutionaize the agricultural Industry if needed.
Dismantling of WAPDA and transfering power cto private sector is the only solution. It is not Govt job to generate Energy. It should only regulate, help companies catching thieves so linee losses are only 6-8% as Internationally acceptable as compared to 37% energy revenue loss in Pakistan.
600,000MW power in US is generated by provate sector. “Not EVEN ONE WATT IS GENERATED BY GOVT”.
But in Pakiistan People’s Govt(LOL…) is working to help its friends, his Masters making expoensive gas contracts with Iran and renting Power plant as if it is Car or house appliance…
Will anyone ever think for Pakistan? Will there be another Musharraf?
No, becaue Musharraf did not helped corrupts make billions and buy Banglows and palaces in London and Dubai. What a shame Pakistan is going through?
Omer writes,
What do you think are the prospects of medium sized solar farms (10-20MW)in pakistan? The technology is fairly modular and can be put together very quickly. So rather then constructing a a large 1000MW+ hydro, coal or natural gas plant that may take years to set up, a solar farm or multiples of it can be put together in 6-9 months, with energy output for 20+ years.
Solar is very expensive and is totally stupid idea for poor country like Pakistan. The capital cost in enormous and the return on investment is negative. The country will only lose money in Solar. The solar idea in poor country only comes from foreign educated second generatioon Feudals amnd corrupts who get eduacted in US or Europe and think this is US also with unlimited wealth. They start a project with the heavy political support they have and then end up getting it Bankrupt…lol Nothing happens to them as it is Public monmey they play with, not their own money
The only reasonable environmentally safe way will be wind power provided Govt can help turbine manufacturing in Pakistan or imported from India which wll be 1/10th of the cost in US or western world and will also help strengthen the manufacturinfg sector. Although the principle investment is still high in wind power generation but it will at least from the national resource and can be maintained easily. This will create thousands of local jobs. There should be a Wind technology courses in every techical instituite in pakistan to increase awareness among public. Installation is easy and resource is unlimited. Energy conservation, renewable batteries should another segment pakistan need to learn quickly.
Wow – Sorry for asking a question buddy.
I am not sure how you consider wind a natural resource and solar not one. And I am not sure how Wind will create thousands of jobs and solar will not. And finally I am not sure you have really studied the matter.
Wind Energy though more efficient has a host of transmission issues and off peak production issues. Farms are afar from urban populations and the transmission cost actually makes it less economical then solar. Finally wind production is highest during the night when electricity demand is lowest, and thus adding incremental cost of storing electricity. Finally, wind farm maintenance is much higher and susceptible to risk then Solar, i.e. one turbine going down will reduce electricity generation significantly and if the damage is beyond repair then you are looking at a huge investment loss.
Solar has its set of issues as well, but there are less transmission issues, electricity is generate during peak demand times (less storage issues) and the technology is fairly simple and reliable. A few panels going down won’t effect generation as much as one turbine going down.
Finally solar technology has improved drastically and the cost has drastically come down. 40% in the last year alone. By 2012 solar is expected to be more economical then normal forms of electricity. Companies like SunTech in China are selling panels these days due to heavy chinese gov’t incentives.
The county needs a diversified energy program, wind and solar are both good ideas with each having pros and cons. My point was only that having solar farms near urban centers is a more viable solution then either 1. waiting for hydro, coal or nuclear plants to be completed or 2. spending money on Rental Power plants that still need a fossil fuel to function.
meant SunTech is selling panels at their cost of production due to Chines Gov’t incentives.
Omer,
Solar energ are only for homes or small Industry consumption which can hardly be around 10-50KW at the most with crores in investments. It again needs heavy investment in batteries and maintenance. The panels generally are to be replaces. Accidental damage will be very common in Pakistan because people have no entertainment and will throw stone and rubber propelled Missiles just for the hack of it. Securing the panels will need heavy towers and construction around it.
Solar can never be a viable National source for transmission lines. Solar will never be economicallly viable for any poor country. Suntech with heavy govt funding may be able to provide some solar power to chinese just score some points with US and international environmental agencies because chinja is under heavy criticiosm due to environmental damage there. China has trillions in surplus and pakistan is in 80 billions in debt. It can not afford luxury projects only later to fail at public cost.
Solar can never be 100s of MW. WE are talking about KW with billions in investment which will be totally lost. It is just a propaganda, nothing more from Solar manufacturers and we should not fall into this trap. You can check the cost from any solar manufacturer just for 10Kw which is hardly enough for a very small factory of four small motors and see for your self.
Just reading marketing material does not tells you the facts and make you an expert.
Wind energy only needs alternators/motors for which we have technology and expertiese, poles which are made locally and Wings which are easy to make. Gearboxes are also made now locally.
You can locally make a wind turbine in just few lacs and provide electricity to 2-5 homes with one and about 200 with small cascade in parallel.
You will need millions in Solar with no guarantee of replacemnet panels becasuse such companies fail so fast and end up destroying all pricipal investment of their customers.
Changing the panels or replacing is the major investment again. Solar panels have been tried in Pakistan when Dollat was equal to 5 Rupees by foreign return kids of Feudal and corrupt Industrialist.
Energy solution is only in the hands of Private sector in Co-Op environment or Govt supported private international projects later to be run by public. Build earn and handover is a better way which will create Jobs, bring technology and make the country sufficient in Energy. Even the richest country in US only has 0.00005% of its energy from solar with all the major manufacturing facilities in the world.
Solar is luixury and we can try it onjce we have trillion dollar in surplus. Right now it will end up creating more debt for the poor bankrupted nation.
SNA. You are welcome to participate in this forum. However I’ve had to edit/ moderate your comment. Please take cue. I hope you will not give me an opportunity to do this again. Thank you.
- There numerous solar farms in the world generating between 50 MW to 100 ME in electricity
- 100MW farm has roughly cost of $300mm to $350mm (not billions)
- I have checked the cost because I am in the process of financing a solar program generating approx 75 MW
- The top three solar companies: First Solar, SunPower and SunTech all have market caps of billions.
First Solar: $10.15 bn USD
SunPower: $2.5 bn USD
SunTech: $2.35 bn USD
- SunTech is selling panels to both overseas and local project developers. Alot of the financing is being done by various EXIM banks of industrial nations.
- Solar has been tried and proven to work in various African nations.
Am I right in assuming that the EXIM banks would be financing manufacturers from their own countries? Also have you looked at a carbon offsets programme for your project? Who is the power user?
Moazzam,
The project I am evaluating is actually in the US, being that the US doesn’t have a carbon policy yet carbon offsets isn’t a huge play. However respective US states have incentives that work similar to carbon offsets. In our project the energy offtaker will probably be a third party real estate operator – but it a utility may serve a backup role.
You are right that the EXIM programs finance only the manufacturers for their respective countries.
Which actually works quite well for pakistan, the biggest manufacturers are located in China, US and Germany. Both China and US have a strategic interest in Pakistan’s development and along with their local stimulus packages to spur export growth, their EXIM banks should be willing to finance the development of projects in pakistan.
You would need the Gov’t of Pakistan to guarantee the project’s liabilities. I am not sure what bureaucratic hurdles that involves and if that makes anything on this idea unrealistic.
Omer,
The budgeted cost given to me for 100 MW plants is 710 million Dollar and completion time of 2-3 years just to deliver the panels. Add the time of assembly in PAKISTAN and you will end up 5 years completion target. We wil need 1000-1500 Acres of land as well.
Cost of 100 MW solar power plany recently contarcted by vatican is valued at 660 Million Dollars. In case of pakistan add the cost of land as well as transmission cost and it will end up to go upto 800 million.
You can get 1000 MW gas powered plant in this cost which will be equal to 2000MW Solar plant.
Whole world is still experimenting and no data on the success of these plant is available. Solar plnats are a new concept for grid base high produce solar energy. Half of the small plants(1- 10 MW) installed in alst 10 years are inoperative and closed due to lack of parts because technology is changing so fast.
My suggestion will be of avoiding such experimental projects for pakistan for at least 20 years untill the technology can really takes hold, maintenance and life cycle data are avialable and it starts working will be in the best interest of the nation.
SNA where are you getting your numbers? I am getting my quotes directly from SunPower and FirstSolar and am involved in a project with those costs? Are you sure your numbers are up to date?
The technology is definitely changing quickly, its becoming cheaper and more efficient, but there is plenty of history to rely on. There is 15 GW of installed solar capacity in the world.
SNA
Can you also elaborate on how a country with 80bn of debt will not add to its debt by doing any infastructure spending? regardless of its solar, wind, hydro, etc…
If debt reduction is your goal, then how about a massive increase in personal, sales and excise taxes and spending freeze on all government programs.
Omer,
The solar energy generation is still huge expense and production is hardly 1/3rd of the regular power plant. Add the transmision and distribution cost and it is phenomenal and a luxury for poor country like pakistan. It will be criminally negligent to accept such projects. Pakistan should not accept it even if it is under an aid program which anyway Nation has to pay back.
As I said earlier aid to pakistan is a farce and is only used by corrupts to make commisions and provide jobs to Foreign educated second generation of feudals and Corrupts.
If a foreign company think this is a good investment, they should not demand guaranteeing their priciples in case of failure. The project should be toattly in priovate sector. You will see all of them will run away from the project. Solar energy generation is not economical and practical even in richest country like US. Govt subsidies are being provided to try this energy resource but so far it has failed. let us wait for 20 more years and once the solar generation is economiclly viable, pakistan should try it.
For pakistan the best way to generate energy is old fashion way. Hydel, nuclear, Coal, Gas, feul. I ma skeptical but even ethenol based generation might work because raw material is available. It does not matter how much the cost of energy generation in these cases because the energy cost of an Industry is only 5-8% of its overall running expenses. The problem is not that the factories and consumers can not afford the problem is they have no electricity to produce and make money. One 1/2HP motor provides job to one family provide you can run it.
Your note on market capatilizatgion means nothing. This paper value can vansih in three weeks when the stocks jump downward. You should not be trapped in such a sure to fail project pushed in pakistan’s throat.
Market capatlization of AOL was once 150 Billion which went down to 12 billion 3 years back and is about 33 billion today….lol
Market Capatilizayion of GM, once 56 Billion went down to 7 billion…lol
This is not aid. This is a death recipie for a poor nation. IF US wants to help Pakistan, they should transfer the technology and set-up a manfacturing plant which can create Jobs in pakistan and which can later sell to local market if it is affordable.
Your deal is like buying Lumbergini to travel from Lahore to Chhon Choon Ki Milan while the nation can’t afford a donkey…lol
And then Govt of pakistan to provide guarantees on project liabilities is a clear red flag that it is doomed from the begining and the looters and commison takers are only interested in making money for themselves and then run away leaving liabilities for poor pakistanis to pay.
Come on Omer, where are you heading?
Even China does not have any operational Solar project of 75 MW. Even Us has hardly one or two.
Pakistan’s should not be the practice ground for solar technology. It is totally inefficient and commercially a sure fail. There is not even one solar project which is totally in private sector and making money. If so, this group who is trying to sell you the idea should not demand the guarantees from Govt of pakistan.
How many private sector project have such conditions. Govt has nothing to do with guaranteeing any commercial prject. It is Banks, private organnization and regulatory authorities of the country where the project is coming up.
As to the cost of 300 MW, I will get back to you on this because I have resources to get a quote on this project. But let me tell you 300MW solar project is equal to 130-150MW of regular power plant because solar energuy is only available for half the time and its peak is hardly 6 hours span. Take out the time of cloudy and rainy weather and you get even less. Add the high batteries, Real EState and transmission lines cost, you will ended up at exhorbitant cost with very little output.
The coal, Feul and gas powered Generation is possible in the proximity of any city and transmission cost is minimal.
In the cost of 300MW Solar power, we can have 800MW plant with 85% efficiency in transmission.
It is doomed project Omer. Try your luck in some other power plants. Just because we have an inept Govt which can not provide electricity to its factories, these kind of destructive projects should not be pushed down in its throat. It is alraedy clogged with tons of similar economically idiotic projects in the past.
God bless
I’d like to reply to this but once I look past the political commentary, I am not sure what your point is?
Let me make my point again in a succinct manner.
- I knowa and agree with you that Hydel, nuclear, coal is cheaper then renewable Solar or Wind.
- I think solar in the current landscape presents a viable opportunity for Pakistan since it can be implemented much quicker then Hydel, nuclear and coal.
I will say in regards to your comment regarding solar panel manufacturing. The technology is no big secret, Pakistan should be in that business and I believe they would do well.
Omer writes,
SNA
Can you also elaborate on how a country with 80bn of debt will not add to its debt by doing any infastructure spending? regardless of its solar, wind, hydro, etc…
If debt reduction is your goal, then how about a massive increase in personal, sales and excise taxes and spending freeze on all government programs.
Omer, thanks. Your comments are worth responding. Here is how we were doing and we can still do.
Let me go back in history, not that long. It was right before our eyes untill the US changed it color and started supporting fake democracy flag bearers like PPP who are intellectually incapable to run their own house let alone the country. No democracy in the party where a playboy kid has become the chairman and even has chnaged its alst name…lol Lawyers the so called intlligencia and civil society failed to realise the long terms effects of exponential economic growth happening all over the country.Thye wnated to bring down Musharraf at all costs because they knew US has disowned him…lol
This is 2004-2007 my friend when,
-Stock market was fastest growing in the WORLD. Went from 900 to 16,000. market capitalization of 4000 billion RS.,
-GDP growth 8% only after China and India
-Govt revenue increased five fold from 80 billion To 550 billion plus. And this is not due to US aid which was hardly 500 million/year and a peanut.
-Foreign Investment increased to a level never seen in pakistan. In fact the foreign investment(Private investment, not US aid which is a Black hole) more than the combined previous 55 years of pakistan history.
-65 Billion Dollart came into financial netwrok of pakistani banks which mushroomed the financial tributories for all the country.
Politically pakistan was once a respectable country as to compared what has happened in last two years, a failed state, socially disturbed, economically destroyed and politically in bigger delima than it ever was. Because civil society which most of them are corrupt and permit seekers never thought of acting as pakistani, back stabbed pakistani interests and coloborated with democrates, republican, think tanks and spread rumors after rumors about nuclear safety, Taleban issues, issued FAKE POlls, Afghan war which was not a pakistani war and whatever mean necessary to dislodge a democracry which was better than what we have today. Pakistan could have had a great democracy from Grassroots instead of Commisionary British system which is being forced back on the nation by PPP and its allies.
This happened first time in the history of pakistan that IMF was rebuffed, World Bank was not an issue at all.
Now you are back to 90s my friend.
It is very simple to create a progresive pakistan. Include all sections of the country, create a transparent Governing, privatize everything, guaratee provincial auotnomy, follow only Civic and humane ideas supported by UN charter, take religion out of politics, create an attituide of inclusion and internationalism instead of the drama of Ummah and other theology based ideas which has only created destruction in the socity
For revenue generation force every rich and feudal to pay Income Tax, every businessman to charge sales tax and pay taxes on profit they make. The Govt is poor, but people are rich in pakiistan. Target Black market and you will have a good revenue growth. Support foreign investment provide free land and tax breaks for 10-15 years, open up like dubai and singapore. Allow karachi to become next Dubai because it has located better than Dubai strategically which is being run by foreigners, human resources available better than anywhere in the world except India and at very cheap rates, technical expertise. land, infrastructure and what not. When people of pakistan and India can create Dubai like growth and Chinese can create Singapore and Hong kong, Pakistanis can do it better because they speak better English than chinese.
You should think the devastating route PPP has chosen. It is crippling Pakistan and there may not be a country nameed pakistan if negative policies and discrimination against ethnicities continue like it is today. Pakistan is being broken from within.
My little bit of political commentary:
As a nation, rather then playing the blame game, be it: Musharaff, the PPP, the PML, the USA, feudal lords, corrupt officials, or a lazy population we need to come up with tangible solutions and work towards a plan to get there.
You seem to have the desire to do something good for pakistan but I don’t see any distinct plan in your thoughts.
And once again, my goal was only to present a particular plan. I am cognizant that the plan is not perfect, but no plan is really perfect. Even with all the issues you have thoughtfully brought up, I am confident that my suggestion can be used to light up a house in a village, make a small business more productive, cool a middle class home and generally reduce the amount of load shedding. And most importantly all in the near future.
Excellent article. A must read for all concerned Pakistanis.
Alternate energy solutions at a localized levels is also something we must look into. Like utilizing wind and solar and a combination of these two to power remote areas of Sindh, Balochisttan, and other suitable regions.
Wave turbines can also be used to generate energy from sea waves.
There are many ways to generate clean energy and many more steps can be taken to optimize energy consumption. Like we must improve our power distribution channels and systems.
Resources and means are all there, what is lacking is the will. Unless our government and leadership stops concentrating on their petty political rivalries (no one is interested in it any more, people of Pakistan want results) and their corrupt practices, chances of Pakistan becoming an energy sufficient country are slim.
Omer writes,
SNA where are you getting your numbers? I am getting my quotes directly from SunPower and FirstSolar and am involved in a project with those costs? Are you sure your numbers are up to date?
The technology is definitely changing quickly, its becoming cheaper and more efficient, but there is plenty of history to rely on. There is 15 GW of installed solar capacity in the world.
Omer prices are definitely correct. These are budgheted price in ideal conditions. In case of Pakistan the prices will even go up. Where are you getting your figures? What is the delivery time? Why Govt garntees are being sought if project is economically viable and will make tons of money for investors?
Read about this 100 MW of solar plant sold to Vatican right near the manufacturer in Germany
http://www.solarfeeds.com/component/content/article/94-cleantech/6800-100mw-solar-plant-for-the-vatican-.html
As you said, if it is correct(Which I doubt very much because 15000 MW installed currently seems like dream work) and even if world has 15GW of solar power, it is only 0.006% of world energy consumption which is nominal.
As you confirmed that Solar Energy is changing quickly hopefully for better, there is strong likelyhood that by the time you are finished with the project the panels used in the plant are obsolete and no spares available. The whole project will end up in Govt scrape yard only to be paid by public money.
Have mercy on a poor country. You can make money from some other power plant and tons of it.
If Sunpower or your group is so confident why asking Govt guarantees on investment. Why not just go in and create a gold mine for investors? What if the whole thing go bust and poor pakistanis end up paying for it without getting one KWH of energy? That will be the most expensive enery unit cost paid by the poor people of pakistan?
Also all three major companies you mentioned have no stock of the plant and delivery is 6-9 months at least unless you are buying some old discontinued stock of panels lying somewhere in scrap yard.
Secondly to prepare 1000 Acre land, its infrastructure, transmission, sub-stations, distribution network etc will take at least 2 years. There is no quick supply of solar power.
The only way to get power in 1-2 years is buy small units over the counter from Europe or US. There are 20-200MW plants new or refurbished in many places available which can be bought and installed quickly(12-18 months).
The main reason of pakistan’s shortage is also the fact that the current Generation is not being used fully because of lack of payments to utility companies. Only 14-15000 mW is being generated as compared to 18000MW capacity..
Privatising the Industry is the only long term solution. Govt Gaurantees are asking for disastor and Bankrupcy which we were facing in 1999 before Musharraf took over. We should not go back to that route again.
God bless you.
I don’t think you know your facts.
Like I said i am getting facts directly from SunPower and First Solar. The vatican article you posted shows a range for $450-660mm and is a few months old. Secondly, it seems to use PV technology rather then Thin Film which is much much cheaper. There is also Solar Thermal which is more efficient but more expensive. I know my numbers are correct considering we are in the process of writing a rather large check for a project.
In regards of your dreams of seeing 15gw of solar capacity, attached please see some stats:
http://www.ren21.net/pdf/RE_GSR_2009_update.pdf
After reading the attached you may want to distribute ladoos in your neighborhood. Its not often dreams come true.
Was this really a serious comment:
“there is strong likelyhood that by the time you are finished with the project the panels used in the plant are obsolete and no spares available. The whole project will end up in Govt scrape yard only to be paid by public money.”
Do you even know how ridiculous this sounds? Really, please tell me the above comment was a joke?
Why do you think that all these panels will become scrap two years later? Do you not own a tv or a computer, because the technology is changing so quickly? I get it you must rent your tv, computer and washing machine that’s probably why you are a fan of Rental Power Plants.
Had you ever worked on a solar project you would know that your above quote is not a real possibility. Watching sensationalist yellow journalism, does not make you an expert my friend. Solar panels (PV or Thin Film) is a fairly simple technology, they come with 25 year warranties, and there are numerous installations that have been running for 15 years plus. And the technology is easily reproducible.
Why do you think the companies I am mentioning have no stock? Did you visit the factories? I have visited the plants and touched the stock myself, and believe me it was there. As a matter of fact panel prices have fallen by 30 to 40% this year, BECAUSE MANUFACTURERS HAVE TOO MUCH STOCK!!!!
Also, I wasn’t aware that acres of dessert land being currently unused with no natural resource or urban population was worth so much money. If you really believe that, I have an investment you may find even more attractive.
My friend take a moment and read about how EXIM banks work. My proposal was a fully financed solution to do solar or even wind btw in Pakistan using the EXIM bank for financing. Since there is no credit worth person or private company in Pakistan, that EXIM bank will only lend money to a Pakistani project if the government guarantees it. The companies themselves don’t require any type of guarantee. You are not understanding how this guarantee works, or how the EXIM bank works. All I am hearing from you are cliched quotes that I hear all the time at dinner parties when a few old uncles get together and start blaming everyone but themselves. Not realizing that these old uncles and their generation failed the youth of pakistan and that the blame is shared by all, from the rich to the very poor (not equally but still shared).
And finally do let me know how the poor people of pakistan are not getting raped by rental power plants, where the government not only spends to bring in the plants but also pays ongoing costs; all for a very short term unsustainable policy.
BTW good luck privatizing the Paki industry. Do you even know what the entails: how it happens, what environment is needed, how its structured, where the money comes in?
You are telling me to have mercy on Pakistan. You should have some mercy, all you want to do is sell every tax payer institution for pennies to “corrupt second generation fuedel lords.”
If thats really your plan, let me know how and when i can bid on these enterprises.
cheers
Omer,
According to the report posted by you on page-12 the largest PV Solar Plant has just bene completed in Spain in 2008. It is not time tested, has no ndetail of what is the cost of Generation and how dependable it is it. WE will only know after 10 years whether these plants are dependable and national money can be rsiked by a poor nations.
Such projects are source of kick backs for politicians and commissions for their overseas partner.
Reason you can not find an invester for $300(Which is unreal as far as the cost I have) because it is full of Risk and have no data supporting the claims.
US can print Dollar, China has 3 trillion plus Foreign Exchnage reserves, Indis is under big pressure of Environmental groups. But Pakistan has no raeson to fall in this death trap.
In your report Wind power is still ten times larger, does not need an EXIM Bank and vulture executives who trap innocents like you is the best way to go after Hydro, Gas and Coal.
Solar is still .06% of the other means of Generation in the world which are abundantly available in the country and there is no need for Pakistan to trap itself in such a risky project which no Industrialist will get involved in.
Solar power will take 3-5 years anyway to complete. If you install this in the desert the road, transmisission lines, Sub-Stataions, Housings for the satff will take at least three years. How abouit Water Supply? Have you located a desert in pakistan which has Road access alraedy?
Why risk the nation for something which can trap it easily.
Pakistan has many options on Energy.
Small Hydro, Gas, Coal, Wind, small Hydro, paying bills to utilities and use total generation capacity etc etc.
Solar is not quick Fix, it is quick trap. I have the feeling PPP Goivt is doing the same thing what they have done in their last two terms, do projects which have pork for themselves and their supporters overseas.
This is what is so clear from your excitment on such a risky project. You have already cut a check to who? Some politician who has access to President’s House or Prime Minister House? or Some project Consultant to create a fake report…lol
I need to send you some Ladoos because you have touched the largest Solar panel physically panel by panel…lol
Think about Pakistan first?
God bless
Omer, the PV project in Spain in only 60MW.
I work for a US financial institution and am the investor in a sense in our project. The project takes place in the US and believe me we have plenty of co-investors.
I DONT EVEN LIVE IN PAKISTAN. WHY DO U KEEP SAYING I HAVE SOME ARRANGEMENT WITH SOME ONE THERE. I PRESENTED AN IDEA, NOT A SPECIFIC PROJECT.
if you want financing for Wind projects, nuclear or hydel from other countries you will still need the EXIM bank. Go do your home work.
And you should realize that your idea is nothing new. People have been saying that pak needs to do coal, hydel and nuclear for years and where are they today. Light still goes out every other hour.
I presented an idea that out of the box and although didn’t solve the problem completely helped. And what did i get in return, personal attack after personal attack. Accusations of being some corrupt fuedel lord or some politicians B student son.
While here you are continuing the legacy of colonial enslavement. Persisting with ideas that have been on the table for 30 years and failed. All of your grandiose plans require massive international debt and cooperation, just enslaving us further and further. Atleast Solar and Wind is something that pakistan can manufacture and be self reliant in, if
the nation chooses to do so.
And that is the problem with Pakistan, there is no out of the box thinking and if some one does do that. Everyone, including very educated individuals, immediately believe he has a hidden agenda and decide to leg pull. Because why would a man do anything that is not self serving.
Should I assume that you have interest in some Hydel plant?
I don’t see a future for a Pakistan that doesn’t foster creative thinking and creative solutions that differ from the norm. You have only shown me the causes of why pakistan is where it is.
good luck with all
Omer writes,
I PRESENTED AN IDEA, NOT A SPECIFIC PROJECT.
LOL now you have taken 180 degree turn. From cutting a check for the project and physically touching the huge 100MW solar panels… to just an idea…lol
Omer little knowledge is dangerous thing. Since you are part fo some financial institution here, you have no idea of the technicalities and ground realities of such a dangerous project. It will not only be political liability like IPL of past PPP govts but a financial disastor.
Pakistan is where it is today through the ill thinking of so called educated civil society, corrupt politicians who wanted power at any cost and the reason Pakistan is being run from outside forces not the people of pakistan. You called it political commentary with no clear thoughts but the fact Pakistan was doing great untill March 2007 when Corrupt lawyers, PPP and PML-N joined hands with foreign powers to destabilise Pakistan. There was no shortage of electricity although the demand was incraesing by 10% every year due to exponential growth in Manufacturing sector and foreign investment(And there were no Govt Guarantees from the Banks…lol needed like Solar proiject)
For any Energy project the correct forum is PEC and AEEP(Association of Electrical Engineers of pakistan) who should be asked to approve the viability of the project where renowned Electrical/Civil Engineers go through the project and prepare a Comparative study first.
AS for blame game, Go back to March 2007 and see how anti Musharraf Forces emerged so suddenly and destroyed the political stability he kept for 8 years.
The drama of Pakistan nuclear assetts estimated to fall in terrorist hands(Fake polls created with PPP backing, anti-Pakistan Forums on Nuclear and safety issues mushroomed in US and US and the propaganda exploded on Pakistani Media) , Taleban strengthened by funding from overseas, Baluchistan issue came up on World forums, doubts about pakistan’s sincerity on War and terror emerged out of no where and DO MORE drama was reinforced with the help of PPP who openly said WE will allow US attacks on pakistan if came in power without thinking about the long term implications.
God knows how and what we will say to the innocent families of thousand skilled in US attacks and Army action on the western borders in the next few years when US will pull out of there. Mushrraf had balanced policy whereby he maginalised the terrorists and their foreign funded support groups(Mullah groups had 70 seats in 2002 election and Govt is two provinces while in 2008 they only had 10 and no provincial govt)
and kept pakistan out of fire.
Self serving projects I understand but risking the National interest is nothing but greed.
Pakistan is vital for world peace and therefore it is very important that it does not fall into traps of disastors while all the other recognised, well established means of energy generation have not been exhausted.
The fact is pakistan has the potential of traditional Power Generation capacity of 200,000 MW as compared to 18,000 it currently have. Only if people of pakistan have control over their destiny, their resources and a transparent system of Governing.
If you belong to new generation, you should act like one and stop blaming elders. Bring better solutions which does not jeoperdise its National interests and end up more debts and failed projects.
Solar is not out of the Box solution beccause it is still in priliminary stage and all its hoopla is about creating another Energy Bubble for Stock market. We should not fall into this trap of NASDAC and DJIA numbers. US and China can afford it. For Pakistan it is a dangerous solution which is practically doomed.
US Energy policy is totally flawed and its renewable energy projects will end up in scrap yards. Cost of energy will triplle and Middle Class will end up with more debts and huge Cost of living. The utility charges in US have already trippled in last 12 years
EXIM banks are only trying to increase country’s exports at any cost. Stay away from them for god’s sake.
To solve Paklistan’s Energy problems, we should start with smaller Generating stations 10-100 mW run bby any fuel, Gas, coal etc. make along term Hydal polici of 200-800MR on Rivers. At least 10-15 locations are well known in Pakistan to make such projects. Create Co-operatibve style Energy companies like US and let it run by shareholders. People of pakistan, its rich people(No matter even if they are feudal or corrupts) should be lured to invest in such public companies because there at least they wil pay Income tax and create millions of jobs. In the next 5 years pakistan can easily double its Energy production which can even be Exported to India because it needs much more and Indai’s major techincal hubs are just few hundered miles away from Border.
Omer writes,
While here you are continuing the legacy of colonial enslavement. Persisting with ideas that have been on the table for 30 years and failed. All of your grandiose plans require massive international debt and cooperation, just enslaving us further and further. Atleast Solar and Wind is something that pakistan can manufacture and be self reliant in, if
the nation chooses to do so.
Omer there is no legacy of colonial enslavement and theer never was. So stop blaming others.
I will try to put some clear ideas one more time.
Pakistan should privatise WAPDA immediately. Allow small power plants in Private sector. This can create 200-500 small 10-50 MW plants in 2-5 years. All Industrial Estates in pakistan will immediately jump on this opportunity which will guarntee power from Two sources, One KESC/WAPDA Netwrok and one of their own. They will use whichever is cheaper and available. Auto switch will provide energy 24/7/365 and they can run three shifts if Orders are available. They can even sell their electricity to WAPDA netwrok.
DO you know Pakistan is perhaps the only country where Utility companies give add in TV that Facory owners are requested to run two shifts instead of three and one shift instead of two.
Do you know the implications of running one less shift on an Export order or Job market? If small Power plants are allowed, they will not think and face hardship of getting energy and instead concentrate on the business and how to improve it.
As I said earleir Energy cost is only 5-8% the factory cost. But today not running the factory to its full capacity is bankrupting the Industry.
I have no persnal interest in any project in pakistan, but I do have interest in pakistan because stable Pakistan is important to US interests and its good policies in Middle East and SE Asia.
Unfortunately US has the habit of shooting itself in the foot due to partisan politics. Pakistan’s corrupts have always taken advantage of it and survived…lol
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